Part 1
How do you think Flynn would react to the current distances the golf ball travels and would he be in favor of a rollback that both the USGA and R&A are proposing for implementation in 2030?
Jim Nagle: While I cannot speak specifically to what Flynn may have thought, his petitions to the USGA regarding player abilities and equipment changes in 1938 provide enough insight to confirm his agreement with the potential rollback. Flynn was a strong proponent and heavily influenced the USGA to play the 1939 US Open at Philadelphia County Club as a par 69. His quote was as follows:
“During the last decade, there has been continuous improvement in the golf ball. Also, the modern club has been made much more powerful and effective by changes in the swinging weight and improvements in the steel shaft. In addition to a new class of golf, amateur and professional has developed.
“The modern professional has achieved unbelievable distance and accuracy because he not only practices continually and intelligently but because he goes into physical and mental training for tournament play.”
Stephen Kay: Flynn explicitly warned against increasing the hitting distance of golf balls. He would not be happy with how far the golf ball goes.
He would like the rollback, but he would feel it should have been done 30 years ago. Flynn feared golf courses would need to get to 8,000 yards to challenge the elite players.
Mark Fine: Flynn knew golf courses would need to be lengthened in the future and promoted elasticity to add longer tees to his designs if at all possible. That said, Flynn also stated that placing a premium on accuracy with due consideration for length should be the aim of all architects.
As such, he would likely support the rollback idea as Flynn was also a superintendent and knew that the spiraling cost to build and maintain longer and longer golf courses is getting out of control.
Jeff Stein: Any architect dead or alive should be in favor of limiting distance in the professional game.
The most compelling hole from Shinnecock Hills is what? Why so?
Mark Fine: There are so many great holes at Shinnecock such as the 9th, 14th and the finishing 18th but the one that always stands out to me and will play an important role in the tournament will be the short 11th.
Only 155 yards it has been described by many as the shortest par five on the golf course. If the wind is blowing, which it almost always does at Shinnecock, the uphill tee shot to a skyline green defended by deep bunkers and a severe runoff area is intimidating.
Anyone playing this hole close to par for the tournament will be picking up several shots on the field.
Stephen Kay: I was a volunteer marshal with the MGA on the 9th hole back in 1986 and 1995. The fairway slopes hard from right to left, dropping over 8 feet.
To keep your drive in the fairway, a fade is needed to stay on the upper right side of the fairway, which is the best way to attack the green. Note your stance will be awkward.
Jeff Stein: The 7th hole and the controversy around it caught my attention over the last two US Opens. The fact that players actually aim for the front bunker is astounding to me.
The terrifying precision necessary to hit this target is just part of the fabric of this championship at Shinnecock Hills and makes for a compelling watch.
Jim Nagle: Tough call, but I go with the par-5 16th. I find the arrangement of bunkers, the way he arranged the bunkers, to create the intended lines of play and strategy. The asymmetry of the bunkers’ arrangements from tee to green and then the mass at the green is genius.
He also uses the ridge to create the back faces of the group of five bunkers, which provides the line of charm and the preferred line to approach the green. The hole has multiple ‘S’ curves, yet from tee to green, it is essentially a straight line.
The USGA has had issues in course set-up at the last two Opens hosted at Shinnecock Hills — 2004 and 2018. What specific advice would you give to the organization with this in mind?
Mark Fine: First and foremost, be mindful of hole locations. Weather permitting, set the golf course up firm and fast but make conservative choices on where to locate the pins especially on holes like the 7th where certain portions of the green are not meant to be pinned when the greens are rolling at today’s US Open speeds.
Everyone already knows the golf course is very challenging. Let the golf architecture shine and not be overshadowed by an over-the-top course setup just to prove it is difficult.
Jeff Stein: I think John Jennings and the grounds staff at Shinnecock do a tremendous job all year long and the USGA should simply get out of the way to allow them to present a golf course that is ready to host this year’s US Open.
Time after time it’s the USGA pushing the limit when they would be better served to allow the local experts to do their job.
Jim Nagle: Avoid the need for overly fast greens.
Stephen Kay: Let the superintendent handle it. You pick the pin placements, but all other decisions should be decided by the superintendent. He would rely on a ‘moisture meter’.
But let the local superintendent make the decision. Only the local super knows how each green is going to react to the sun and wind.
The USGA has opted to schedule future US Opens via a core four host sites that include Pebble Beach, Pinehurst No.2, Oakmont and Shinnecock Hills. What is your take on this?
Jim Nagle: I’m in agreement with this philosophy. I believe these courses provide the best challenge for the optimal US Open setup.
I do believe an occasional, once-in-a-decade departure from this rotation would be enjoyable, allowing for a course most people may be unaware of.
Mark Fine: I have mixed emotions about a limited course rotation. I love the four courses selected. They are all obviously some of the best in the world. But I do like adding more course variety.
The downside is the changes to the course architecture that are often felt necessary to host this event. They are usually detrimental to the golf course and would not be needed for everyday play.
Jeff Stein: It’s hard to argue this decision to host your national open at one of these four “Mt. Rushmore venues — however part of me feels this consolidation ultimately shrinks the impact of the US Open by not spreading the host sites across different venues.
The US Open can bring a lot of pride and economic activity wherever they decide to play.
Stephen Kay: I like it because it would help the viewers get to know the individual golf holes as we do at the masters. But I would like to add newer courses like chambers bay and Erin Hills into the rotation.
Shinnecock Hills and the renowned National Golf Links of America are adjacent to one another. What makes Long Island such a hotspot for an array of top tier golf clubs?
Jim Nagle: Varied land, near links- like conditions, and strong financial backing during the Golden Age of golf development in America.
Jeff Stein: Long Island is essentially a 100-mile-long sand bar, jutting straight out into the ocean from the New York Harbor.
This abundance of sand, easy to build golf courses and its proximity to NYC have made Long Island a golfing hotspot for over 100 years.
Stephen Kay: The land is like the great links courses in Scotland and Ireland. With gentle rolling terrain, sandy soil (maybe the most important thing), and the wind.
Mark Fine: All you have to do is stand by the clubhouses of these two iconic courses and look around at the scenery to answer the question.
The combination of the impressive long range panoramic ocean views coupled with the natural sandy fast draining soil that promotes firm and fast conditions makes the area ideal for golf.
The winner for this year’s championship will be who?
Mark Fine: Shinnecock is a ball strikers golf course but the golfer who displays the most patience and discipline as they think their way around the golf course will prevail.
While a bit of a long shot, if Justin Rose is putting well, he could be the surprise winner.
Jim Nagle: Brooks Koepka.
Jeff Stein: Matt Fitzpatrick.
Stephen Kay: Rory McIlroy or Shane Lowry.
***
The Participants
Jeff Stein
Principal Architect
Stein Golf Design
Brooklyn, New York
Stein Golf Design
Jeffrey Stein, 40, is the owner of Stein Golf Design LLC based in Brooklyn, New York.
Design credits include the reimagination of Walter Travis’ Great Dunes on Jekyll Island, Georgia, restoration of Devereux Emett’s seaside links at Seawane Club in Hewlett Harbor, NY and historical renovations of Tillinghast’s work at Essex Fells CC in Essex Fells, NJ.
His career began in 2009 as an intern for Tom Doak’s Renaissance Golf Design. From that time, he has received world class training in field design, construction, and project management while working around the world in places like California, Nebraska, Florida, Brazil, Uruguay, England and New Zealand as an independent design associate for Gil Hanse, Mike DeVries and others.
A 2008 graduate of Brandeis University, Jeffrey earned a B.A. in Economics while representing the school as captain of the golf team. Jeffrey’s diverse experience studying golf’s great landscapes adds a unique perspective to any project and provides the foundation of his belief in a “Design, Build and Finish” philosophy toward his work.
***
Stephen Kay, ASGCA
Owner
Stephen Kay Golf
Egg Harbor, New Jersey
http://kaygolfcoursedesign.com
Stephen Kay is a licensed landscape architect who has limited his practice to golf course architecture since 1983 and has been an ASGCA member since 1995. He has been an instructor in the Rutgers Turfgrass program since 1985, teaching golf construction, design and surveying.
Has provided golf design for over 250 golf courses, plus 20 new courses, several receiving national attention. The Links of North Dakota is ranked in Golfweek’s top 100 in the nation and The Architects Club was in the top 10 new courses of the year in Links Magazine and Sports Illustrated.
He has also done work in Asia (Kingdom of Bhutan and India.) Has extensive experience restoring the classic old designs of such great architects as Donald Ross, AW Tillinghast, Devereux Emmet and Charles Banks.
***
Jim Nagle, ASGCA
Nagle Design Works, LLC
Uniontown, Pennsylvania
www.nagledesignworks.com
Started his golf design career with the Dye Designs organization while a Landscape Architecture student at West Virginia University. He spent over 25 years with Forse Design, where he collaborated with Ron Forse and was the lead designer on numerous nationally recognized restoration and renovation projects.
In March 2024, he formed Nagle Design Works and gained early success with notable projects at the NCR Country Club, Philadelphia Country Club, and Vesper Country Club. With upcoming projects at Warwick Hills Country Club, The Meadow Brook Club, and the NCR South course, Nagle Design Works looks to continue building upon the successes of Jim’s time with Forse Design and in the brief time since forming NDW.
Mark Fine, ASGCA
Fine Golf Design, Inc.
Allentown, PA
https://asgca.org/architect/mfine/
Following a successful business career, Mark founded Fine Golf Design, Inc. in 2003. An ASGCA member, Mark’s background in golf includes over 30 years of study in golf architecture and design while having played and analyzed over 1,600 golf courses around the globe, including hundreds recognized as the world’s best.
In 2006 he co-authored a book popular with Superintendents and Greens Committees titled, “Bunkers, Pits and Other Hazards,”.
Has an ongoing passion for restoring and renovating the works of the “Golden Age” architects. Recent projects include multiple designs from William Gordon as well as Donald Ross.
M. James Ward
A long-time member of both the GWAA and MGWA. The 68-year-old has covered all facets in golf since 1980 — including reporting on over 100 major championships and 13 Ryder Cup matches. His writings have appeared in various outlets. On a personal level, has played over 2,000 courses globally and is lead reviewer for Top 100 Golf Courses.
Previously served for 17 years as national course rating panelist for Golf Digest. Has also personally competed in USGA Championships. Resides in the metro New York City area with his wife Celeste. Favorite quote paraphrased for golf — “You are what your golf score says you are.”